[theora] NHW Project - news with Xiph.org

[Raphael Canut]

Hello,

These last 2 months, I have talked again with Monty Montgomery about the
NHW Project and he told me that Xiph.org would like to encourage the NHW
Project development.That's just great!

I'll see what Monty will do on his side (and when he has time), but he also
told me that the NHW codec has merits but there must be an effort to
demonstrate them.

The advantages, merits of the NHW codec are the neatness advantage, NHW
pictures have more neatness (and a little less precision), so it's a choice
if you prefer more neatness or more precision, but according to my visual
tests, neatness is quite pleasing... and there is also speed, computation
time.

But it is not so evident to demonstrate them, because the NHW codec
performs bad on all metrics because it modifies image to give it more
neatness (this also includes a slight denoising)... For speed, the NHW
codec is written in plain C code, there are no C optimization, no SIMD
optimization, no multithreading, whereas the other codecs
(x265,VP9,x264,WebP,...) have them and are highly optimized, so time/speed
comparison will not be fair...

Then there are innovations in the NHW codec: like a new fast wavelet
transform, a multistage residual coding, 3 new entropy coding schemes and
other things like for example interesting pre- and post- processing based
on a laplacian kernel, a feedback correction,etc...

Monty told me :"If you don't have access to web space you can use for
documenting and advertising the project, we can certainly offer that."

Are you interested in documentation of the innovations of the NHW codec? As
I am still very busy (but this will change), do some of you would like to
make these demonstrations?

So to finish, I think it's a great deal that Xiph.org proposes!!!, if you
want more of this collaboration, want to help in the development,
documentation, demonstration of the NHW Project, do not hesitate to show up
on the forum.

Many thanks again to Xiph!, hope this will materialize in the next months.

Cheers,
Raphael

[x***@xiph.org]

Hi Raphael,

Post by Raphael Canut
I'll see what Monty will do on his side (and when he has time), but he also
told me that the NHW codec has merits but there must be an effort to
demonstrate them.

Well, if you want to pursue a collaborative project, you need to
attract others to work on it. Perhaps 'demo' is the wrong word... I'd
say the project needs to have a story, and a demonstration of the
technology is part of what makes the story concrete.

Post by Raphael Canut
But it is not so evident to demonstrate them, because the NHW codec performs
bad on all metrics because it modifies image to give it more neatness (this
also includes a slight denoising)... For speed, the NHW codec is written in
plain C code, there are no C optimization, no SIMD optimization, no
multithreading, whereas the other codecs (x265,VP9,x264,WebP,...) have them
and are highly optimized, so time/speed comparison will not be fair...

Optimization at this stage of development is misplaced. You should
have a good idea of the complexity bounds-- this is what other
engineers care about-- but so long as you can demonstrate that your
approach does something unique and useful in a way that draws
interest, that's what you need.

Post by Raphael Canut
Then there are innovations in the NHW codec: like a new fast wavelet
transform, a multistage residual coding, 3 new entropy coding schemes and
other things like for example interesting pre- and post- processing based on
a laplacian kernel, a feedback correction,etc...

All these things have been done before... how are your approaches
unique? What references do your versions draw from? Build on? One
reason to be familiar with (and use the language) of the state of the
art is to provide a shared context and terminology in which others can
understand what you're doing.

Post by Raphael Canut
Monty told me :"If you don't have access to web space you can use for
documenting and advertising the project, we can certainly offer that."

Absolutely.

Post by Raphael Canut
Are you interested in documentation of the innovations of the NHW codec? As
I am still very busy (but this will change), do some of you would like to
make these demonstrations?
So to finish, I think it's a great deal that Xiph.org proposes!!!, if you
want more of this collaboration, want to help in the development,
documentation, demonstration of the NHW Project, do not hesitate to show up
on the forum.
Many thanks again to Xiph!, hope this will materialize in the next months.

Good wishes to you too!

Cheers,
Monty

Post by Raphael Canut
Cheers,
Raphael
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theora mailing list
http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/theora

[Raphael Canut]

Hi Monty,

Thank you very much for your answer!

Post by x***@xiph.org
Well, if you want to pursue a collaborative project, you need to

attract others to work on it. Perhaps 'demo' is the wrong word... I'd
say the project needs to have a story, and a demonstration of the
technology is part of what makes the story concrete.

I have actually huge difficulties to attract other people to work on the
NHW Project... In fact there is currently just one highly skilled
researcher from IIT Bombay that gives little of his time to the study of
directional wavelet transforms and their implementation in a codec such as
NHW.Yes I will have to make a demonstation of the technology, but I am not
really skilled in making web page demos with meaningful and well-made
graphs, animations,... I fear that my demos will be rather mean and not
really attractive, and finally deserve the project.

Post by x***@xiph.org
You should have a good idea of the complexity bounds

For example, a comparison of the totally unoptimized NHW codec with the
extremely optimized x264 intra: NHW is 3x times faster to encode and 1.2x
time faster to decode than x264.

Post by x***@xiph.org
All these things have been done before...

Well, I was very sincere when I said that I tought they were innovations...
For my fast DWT implementation (I did it in Feb 2007), I never saw such one
in the litterature and on the Internet... it's the same for at least 2 of
the 3 entropy coding schemes... But apparently I was wrong, could you give
me reference to prior art.

Post by x***@xiph.org

Post by Raphael Canut
Monty told me :"If you don't have access to web space you can use for
documenting and advertising the project, we can certainly offer that."

Absolutely.

How can this materialize? Will the web space be Xiph.org entitled?

So I will try to make a demonstration of the NHW project technology to
attract interest.Do you have advice Monty, software for graphs,... (because
your demo pages are awesome!)?

Many thanks again!
Cheers,
Raphael

Post by x***@xiph.org
Hi Raphael,

Post by Raphael Canut
I'll see what Monty will do on his side (and when he has time), but he

also

Post by Raphael Canut
told me that the NHW codec has merits but there must be an effort to
demonstrate them.

Well, if you want to pursue a collaborative project, you need to
attract others to work on it. Perhaps 'demo' is the wrong word... I'd
say the project needs to have a story, and a demonstration of the
technology is part of what makes the story concrete.

Post by Raphael Canut
But it is not so evident to demonstrate them, because the NHW codec

performs

Post by Raphael Canut
bad on all metrics because it modifies image to give it more neatness

(this

Post by Raphael Canut
also includes a slight denoising)... For speed, the NHW codec is written

in

Post by Raphael Canut
plain C code, there are no C optimization, no SIMD optimization, no
multithreading, whereas the other codecs (x265,VP9,x264,WebP,...) have

them

Post by Raphael Canut
and are highly optimized, so time/speed comparison will not be fair...

Optimization at this stage of development is misplaced. You should
have a good idea of the complexity bounds-- this is what other
engineers care about-- but so long as you can demonstrate that your
approach does something unique and useful in a way that draws
interest, that's what you need.

Post by Raphael Canut
Then there are innovations in the NHW codec: like a new fast wavelet
transform, a multistage residual coding, 3 new entropy coding schemes and
other things like for example interesting pre- and post- processing

based on

Post by Raphael Canut
a laplacian kernel, a feedback correction,etc...

All these things have been done before... how are your approaches
unique? What references do your versions draw from? Build on? One
reason to be familiar with (and use the language) of the state of the
art is to provide a shared context and terminology in which others can
understand what you're doing.

Post by Raphael Canut
Monty told me :"If you don't have access to web space you can use for
documenting and advertising the project, we can certainly offer that."

Absolutely.

Post by Raphael Canut
Are you interested in documentation of the innovations of the NHW codec?

As

Post by Raphael Canut
I am still very busy (but this will change), do some of you would like to
make these demonstrations?
So to finish, I think it's a great deal that Xiph.org proposes!!!, if you
want more of this collaboration, want to help in the development,
documentation, demonstration of the NHW Project, do not hesitate to show

up

Post by Raphael Canut
on the forum.
Many thanks again to Xiph!, hope this will materialize in the next

months.
Good wishes to you too!
Cheers,
Monty

Post by Raphael Canut
Cheers,
Raphael
_______________________________________________
theora mailing list
http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/theora

[Raphael Canut]

Hello,

Post by x***@xiph.org
What references do your versions draw from?

I think I made a mistake! In fact my DWT implementation is "implied" in the
lifting scheme, but it could be slower than the lifting scheme because it
does not use the lifting steps.So I think we can replace my DWT
implementation in the NHW codec by the classic lifting scheme! -Does the
lifting scheme patented?-

For the entropy coding, I think there is new things.
For the multistage residual coding, this is not new, but I have never seen
it applied to an image codec...
Feedback correction is not new, but I think it's old enough to be
patent-free.I also did not see it in an image codec.
Preprocessing (with a laplacian kernel) is interesting in the NHW codec,
because it retains the details, grain that would be normally washed out by
increased wavelet quantization.

There are also other processing in the NHW codec (all selected and
optimized for speed), so I will try to make a technology demonstration.A
little help from Xiph?

The other advantage of the NHW codec is that it is royalty- and patent-
free.Do you see at first some patented technology used?

Cheers,
Raphael

Post by x***@xiph.org
Hi Raphael,

Post by Raphael Canut
I'll see what Monty will do on his side (and when he has time), but he

also

Post by Raphael Canut
told me that the NHW codec has merits but there must be an effort to
demonstrate them.

Well, if you want to pursue a collaborative project, you need to
attract others to work on it. Perhaps 'demo' is the wrong word... I'd
say the project needs to have a story, and a demonstration of the
technology is part of what makes the story concrete.

Post by Raphael Canut
But it is not so evident to demonstrate them, because the NHW codec

performs

Post by Raphael Canut
bad on all metrics because it modifies image to give it more neatness

(this

Post by Raphael Canut
also includes a slight denoising)... For speed, the NHW codec is written

in

Post by Raphael Canut
plain C code, there are no C optimization, no SIMD optimization, no
multithreading, whereas the other codecs (x265,VP9,x264,WebP,...) have

them

Post by Raphael Canut
and are highly optimized, so time/speed comparison will not be fair...

Optimization at this stage of development is misplaced. You should
have a good idea of the complexity bounds-- this is what other
engineers care about-- but so long as you can demonstrate that your
approach does something unique and useful in a way that draws
interest, that's what you need.

Post by Raphael Canut
Then there are innovations in the NHW codec: like a new fast wavelet
transform, a multistage residual coding, 3 new entropy coding schemes and
other things like for example interesting pre- and post- processing

based on

Post by Raphael Canut
a laplacian kernel, a feedback correction,etc...

All these things have been done before... how are your approaches
unique? What references do your versions draw from? Build on? One
reason to be familiar with (and use the language) of the state of the
art is to provide a shared context and terminology in which others can
understand what you're doing.

Post by Raphael Canut
Monty told me :"If you don't have access to web space you can use for
documenting and advertising the project, we can certainly offer that."

Absolutely.

Post by Raphael Canut
Are you interested in documentation of the innovations of the NHW codec?

As

Post by Raphael Canut
I am still very busy (but this will change), do some of you would like to
make these demonstrations?
So to finish, I think it's a great deal that Xiph.org proposes!!!, if you
want more of this collaboration, want to help in the development,
documentation, demonstration of the NHW Project, do not hesitate to show

up

Post by Raphael Canut
on the forum.
Many thanks again to Xiph!, hope this will materialize in the next

months.
Good wishes to you too!
Cheers,
Monty

Post by Raphael Canut
Cheers,
Raphael
_______________________________________________
theora mailing list
http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/theora

[Raphael Canut]

Hello,

Just a quick message.

Post by x***@xiph.org
the project needs to have a story

For now actually it's a rather sad story... I made 90% of the NHW codec
back in 2007 and 2008.And for more than 10 years now, I try to "sell" it
with main argument: speed, power consumption.I figured that if you have a
car that consumes 5L of gas per 100km, 50-60L per 100km or 250-300L per
100km, your choice is evident and very quick... But this strategy
lamentably failed!...

Post by x***@xiph.org
so long as you can demonstrate that your approach does something
unique and useful in a way that draws interest, that's what you need.

What is unique in the NHW Project is the neatness approach.The NHW codec
enhances image neatness whereas the classic codecs tend to decrease image
neatness but have in return a very good precision.So in fact it's a choice,
the NHW codec is not better or worse than the other codecs, it is
different.On some images more neatness will be more pleasant, on some
others more precision will be more pleasant, and according to my test this
is 50-50.Nevertheless, the big drawback of the NHW codec is that it really
lacks of precision on slowly varying contrast areas (including blur), so it
performs better on rather well-defined images (for example with no strong
JPEG artifacts).

So now I think I have to put forward NHW Project unique approach and
innovations, to try to catch attention.

Monty, it would be really great if we can discuss about it as your advice
are much useful.

The opinions of the community would be also great and very welcome!

Cheers,
Raphael

Post by x***@xiph.org
Hi Raphael,

Post by Raphael Canut
I'll see what Monty will do on his side (and when he has time), but he

also

Post by Raphael Canut
told me that the NHW codec has merits but there must be an effort to
demonstrate them.

Well, if you want to pursue a collaborative project, you need to
attract others to work on it. Perhaps 'demo' is the wrong word... I'd
say the project needs to have a story, and a demonstration of the
technology is part of what makes the story concrete.

Post by Raphael Canut
But it is not so evident to demonstrate them, because the NHW codec

performs

Post by Raphael Canut
bad on all metrics because it modifies image to give it more neatness

(this

Post by Raphael Canut
also includes a slight denoising)... For speed, the NHW codec is written

in

Post by Raphael Canut
plain C code, there are no C optimization, no SIMD optimization, no
multithreading, whereas the other codecs (x265,VP9,x264,WebP,...) have

them

Post by Raphael Canut
and are highly optimized, so time/speed comparison will not be fair...

Optimization at this stage of development is misplaced. You should
have a good idea of the complexity bounds-- this is what other
engineers care about-- but so long as you can demonstrate that your
approach does something unique and useful in a way that draws
interest, that's what you need.

Post by Raphael Canut
Then there are innovations in the NHW codec: like a new fast wavelet
transform, a multistage residual coding, 3 new entropy coding schemes and
other things like for example interesting pre- and post- processing

based on

Post by Raphael Canut
a laplacian kernel, a feedback correction,etc...

All these things have been done before... how are your approaches
unique? What references do your versions draw from? Build on? One
reason to be familiar with (and use the language) of the state of the
art is to provide a shared context and terminology in which others can
understand what you're doing.

Post by Raphael Canut
Monty told me :"If you don't have access to web space you can use for
documenting and advertising the project, we can certainly offer that."

Absolutely.

Post by Raphael Canut
Are you interested in documentation of the innovations of the NHW codec?

As

Post by Raphael Canut
I am still very busy (but this will change), do some of you would like to
make these demonstrations?
So to finish, I think it's a great deal that Xiph.org proposes!!!, if you
want more of this collaboration, want to help in the development,
documentation, demonstration of the NHW Project, do not hesitate to show

up

Post by Raphael Canut
on the forum.
Many thanks again to Xiph!, hope this will materialize in the next

months.
Good wishes to you too!
Cheers,
Monty

Post by Raphael Canut
Cheers,
Raphael
_______________________________________________
theora mailing list
http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/theora